Can we really make any effort for doing ---Talk with Ramana

Can we really make any effort for doing ---Talk with Ramana

Yogi Ramiah: All actions take place owing to Sakti [?]. How far does Sakti go? Can she effect anything without one's own effort?

M.: The answer to the question depends on what the Purusha [?] is understood to be. Is he the ego or the Self?

D.: Purusha is svarupa.

M.: But he cannot make any prayatna (effort).

D.: Jiva [?] is the one who makes the prayatna.

M.: So long as egoity lasts prayatna is necessary. When egoity ceases to be, actions become spontaneous. The ego acts in the presence of the Self. He cannot exist without the Self. The Self makes the universe what it is by His Sakti, and yet He does not Himself act. Sri Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "I am not the doer and yet actions go on". It is clear from the Mahabharata that very wonderful actions were effected by Him. Yet He says that He is not the doer. It is like the sun and the world actions.

D.: He is without abhimana [?] (attachment) whereas the jiva [?] is with abhimana.

M.: Yes. Being attached, he acts and also reaps the fruits. If the fruits are according to his desire he is happy; otherwise he is miserable. Happiness and misery are due to his attachment. If actions were to take place without attachment there would be no expectation of fruit.

D.: Can actions take place spontaneously without individual effort? Should we not cook our food in order to eat it later?

M.: Atman acts through the ego. All actions are due to efforts only. A sleeping child is fed by its mother. The child eats food without being wide awake and then denies having taken food in sleep. However the mother knows what happened.Similarly the Jnani [?] acts unawares. Others see him act, but he does not know it himself. Owing to fear of Him wind blows, etc. That is the order of things. He ordains everything and the universe acts accordingly, yet He does not know. Therefore He is called the great Doer. Every embodied being (ahankari) is bound by niyama [?]. Even Brahma cannot transgress it.

[This devotee later explained the significance of his question. He hears Sri Bhagavan say that the world goes on and the individual needs are met by Divine Will. But he finds that Sri Bhagavan wakes up the Asramites at about 4 a.m. to cut vegetables for the day's curry. He wanted to have the doubt cleared for his own benefit and the question was not meant for discussion].